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Spike
Prince/Princess
Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 182
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 Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:05 pm Post subject: why Pocahontas didn't make it? |
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Ok so this was the last disney classic that won an award for best song, and still disney take it as a failer film they always say their classics made it on top starting from little mermaid to lion king...why isn't pocahontas taken as a hit movie as aladdin, lion king,etc..?
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AladdinsGenie
Genie of the Messageboard
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Because they are basing it off box office money. When your last film made $300 million+ and then the one after that made $145 million, I think, they think it sucks. They were going up, up, up and then went down terribly. There's a number of reasons you can go into over WHY it only made that much like overall story plot, the protests against parents who wouldn't see it because 'omgz not da real storee!11", Katzenberg leaving, over-makerting, etc., but it's all about the money. I wish they would stop basing their movies off how well one should do from the Lion King because I think that's unfair. |
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Calluna
Genie of the Messageboard
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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I think it was more about you had all these really good movies in a row that the expectations kept getting higher and higher until they became completely unrealistic. So that when Pocahontas wasn't as popular people started saying "the golden age is over!" instead of "well, this one wasn't *quite* as good". If Pocahontas had come out between TLM and BatB it would have been considered a hit. And if "A Bug's Life" had come out after "Finding Nemo" instead of "Toy Story" it would have been considered a flop and people'd have been saying it was the end of Pixar's "golden age". Sometimes people are just too determined to see patterns that aren't there. 
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Janette Morgan
Jafar's Hourglass
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 382
Location: Jafaria, Population: Hourglass.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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I dunno... I just thought Pocahontas was too much of a feel-good hippie-like "Nature is Everything!" kind of film. A little naturalism is okay, but there just comes a point. That, and they totally rewrote the story, which almost always disappoints the viewers. (I think the only movies this actually helped were Pinocchio and Aladdin.)
And yes, people do like to overreact. Not the least of reasons being that they get paid to do so.
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Like everyone else said...it didn't meet the public's extremely high expectations after Lion King, and as a result, didn't make nearly as much money as that film did, even if it had quite a respectable take at the box office. Lilo & Stitch made about the same amount of money as Pocahontas, and that's considered a hit because it followed films that hadn't done as well as it did. I think Pocahontas is seen as successful, but somewhat disappointing...it did well for itself, yes, but it wasn't as widely adored by critics and audiences as TLK was (not just talking about box office here), probably because it was in that 'grey' zone...my little brothers were a bit bored by it because they thought it was too serious, but a lot of adults felt it was too sappy and 'kiddified' and historically inaccurate for them to enjoy it...and then its successor just topped $100 million at the box office, so people could look at it and say "Look, it IS part of a downward trend!" Again, is it fair to just compare box office numbers to assess a film? No, at least not as your only defense. But people do.
I think the reason Pocahontas isn't as revered, though, is more about it's 'schizophrenic' approach to its audience than how much money it did or didn't make.
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AladdinsGenie
Genie of the Messageboard
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 11845
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Calluna wrote: |
| If Pocahontas had come out between TLM and BatB it would have been considered a hit. |
And that's funny because there IS a movie between TLM and BATB, The Rescurers Down Under, and no one remembers that one even though it didn't make nearly as much as the others  |
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Syera
Cynical Scribe
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 3441
Location: West Nenūvān
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Disney Princess wrote: |
| I think the reason Pocahontas isn't as revered, though, is more about it's 'schizophrenic' approach to its audience than how much money it did or didn't make. |
Schizophrenic? How d'you figure?
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Syera wrote: |
| Schizophrenic? How d'you figure? |
Well, I'm obviously not using the term schizophrenic in a medical sense at all. When I was at Disney, my friend Jim used that word to describe attractions that seemed to be trying to be several different types of attractions at once to please multiple audiences but in ways that sometimes 'clash.' Examples:
The Haunted Mansion. There were those who wanted this attraction to be terrifying, and others who wanted it to be comical. The final version of the attraction combines elements of fright and humor, and the attraction is a very well-loved classic. However, there are some who believe that the 'balance' is sometimes swayed TOO much in favor of the 'scary.' The ride itself is tame, but the experience begins with a stretching chamber where the lights go out and Guests see a corpse hanging from the ceiling. The first several scenes at the attraction are a bit frightening, and by the time the 'humor' begins to dominate, several younger riders are already too scared to uncover their eyes.
Splash Mountain. The interior of this ride is so cute! It's a retelling of the animated sequences of "Song of the South" (with a sticky beehive in lieu of the now-highly-controversial tar baby from the original tale, and the film), and it's very cute, happy, and filled with cheerful songs like "Ev'rybody Has a Laughing Place" and "Zip A Dee Doo Dah." The problem, of course...the drop. Some people claim the non-thrill scenes send them into sugar shock, while others are too terrified of the drop to be able to see the very well-done interior scenes. Again, this attraction is very, very popular, but the cute ride/thrill ride combination is where its critics have a field day.
Anyway, getting back to Pocahontas...some of the goals of this movie, at least as far as Jeffrey Katzenberg, etc., were 'please the critics and win us lots of awards...maybe the best picture Oscar that eluded us with Beauty and the Beast!' and 'convince the state of Virginia to build a historical-themed Disney park in their state by impressing them with how positively we portray their state, and history, in this movie.' Of course, being Disney, the idea was still to create a film that would be entertaining for audiences of all ages. But in this film, it is more obvious which scenes are for academic audiences/historians/Virginia tourist department people/etc. and which are "Oh, let's show the animals again so the kids aren't getting bored." The 'flow' just isn't there consistently...they hit us over the head with talk of respecting nature, overcoming cultural barriers, and symbolic leaves that teach Pocahontas English ( sorry, it amuses me too much to go without mention), realize the kiddies might be getting a little bored, and then give us some extended scenes of the Flit, Meeko, and Percy Comedy Hour. They're cute, but I think there's major overkill...these are sidekicks whose constant presence begins to feel distracting and undermines the more serious tone of the rest of the movie. So...I say 'schizophrenic' because they're trying to produce a serious historical film and an entertaining family movie at the same time, and it goes back and forth between the two and ends up not being completely satisfying on either end of the spectrum. Not that it is a bad movie, it is just not as satisfying on multiple levels as some other films the studio has produced.
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AladdinsGenie
Genie of the Messageboard
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Hell, I'm 19 and I just stare at it . It's visually gorgeous and I love the songs, but I honestly just stare at it. I laugh with Meeko, Flit and Percy but other than that, I don't move. It's very serious. |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| AladdinsGenie wrote: |
| Hell, I'm 19 and I just stare at it . It's visually gorgeous and I love the songs, but I honestly just stare at it. I laugh with Meeko, Flit and Percy but other than that, I don't move. It's very serious. |
That cracks me up because that's EXACTLY how my brother describes him seeing it for the first time! He was 5 when it came out and said "I don't really remember getting what was going on...I just sat there, and I laughed at Meeko and them."
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APK
Sinister Snack Fairy
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 1322
Location: Lost
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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*Sorry in advance for the legnth of this post*
I found a great essay on a site written by a 16 year old boy named Mark Wang. He wrote in when Pocahontas came out and he was 16 then so maybe now he's in his twenties. Anyway, it's pretty long so sorry for the length but it's still well written and well-thought out so here it is:
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It has occurred to me that some people just won't give Pocahontas a chance. Many of these people haven't seen Pocahontas, are just plain ignorant, or just need something to flame. So, in order to defend a great film from a death of a thousand flames, I decided to respond to the most major nitpicks in _one_ comprehensive rebuttal. I hope you find it useful. (BTW, in case you care, I have seen Pocahontas four times, and have decided that it is most likely number one and BatB (Beauty and the Beast) a close second.)
Nitpick #1: Duuh...the character development sucked...(Actually, some intelligent people nitpick this also...amazing)
This is one thing that really ticks me off. How can some people argue this point? Character development was very prominently displayed in the film. For example, John Smith had the predetermined notion that all Indians were "savages". In the film, he was known as an Indian fighter.
However, as the movie progressed, he discovered that his attitude was the wrong way to approach an entire culture. He learns understanding the other side is more important than assimilating. His entire attitude and way of life changes, and it is all clearly shown.
Pocahontas's character development was also shown in detail. In "Just Around the River Bend" her song, we learn that she has the choice of following the beating of the steady drum (marry Kocoum and follow tradition) or breaking forth and doing something extraordinary. We also learn that she is the adventure type and her spirit definitely embodies her nickname, Pocahontas which means, "Little Mischief". As all Disney heroines, she is wishing for something more than she presently has. Hence, she looks for adventure, "Just around the river bend" (often referred to here as JatRB).
This shows a large amount of who she is and what she feels. At the beginning of the movie, she was free of responsibilities and care. However, during the movie, it is clear that she sees a need to preserve the peace at all costs. Thus, she is given a purpose: To save the English, help her people, and help John Smith.
Meeko (her pet racoon) and Percy (Governor Ratcliffe's bulldog) are representative of the Indian and English culture. So, at the end, when they switched roles, it showed that they finally accepted each other's culture. Kocoum...well...died. Not much to say about him.
Powhatan learned John Smith's lesson: Better peace than war. Nakoma remained a good best friend until the end...Ratcliffe's character was shown in-depth (greedy, dominating, dangerous) and (thankfully) didn't change at all.
Nitpick #2: Pocahontas was too short!
If it can get the point of the movie across and do it effectively, it doesn't NEED to be a long movie. I, along with the audience in all four showings, was completely absorbed in the story, and left with a satisfied feeling. It wasn't until someone told me did I notice that the length wasn't very long. If it's a good and short movie, it's probably better than a long and drawn out movie.
Nitpick #3: It was too formulatic/It wasn't enough like other Disney movies!
Huh? When faced with totally conflicting criticism, it's a sign that both can't be right, and most likely none are. Disney does something old, response: "It was just like all other Disney movies!" (Which isn't a bad thing)
Disney does something new, "It wasn't enough like other Disney movies!" I think that Pocahontas was a correct blend of something old, (Love story) and something new (Historical twist, multi-cultural understanding). To those who don't agree, pick one argument and stick with it! 
Nitpick #4: It lacked symbolisms and other meaningful stuff! (The story is too shallow!) Actually, I've heard this quite a lot.
Anyone who has seen Pokie enough times knows that this is totally false. As mentioned before, when the term, "Steady as the Beating Drum" is used, it represents Indian tradition, or how things have always been. Thus, the lyrics,
"O Great Spirit, hear our song
Help us keep the ancient ways
Keep the sacred fire strong
Walk in balance all our days
Seasons go and seasons come,
Steady as the beating drum
Plum to seed to bud to plum
(Hega hega ya-hi-ye hega)
Steady as the beating drum"
It never ceases to amaze me that people actually miss this. This contrasts totally with Pocahontas's non-traditional view of excitement at what's "Just around the river bend" wishfulness and how she breaks from her society as she wishes for something new, rather than a traditional life. The conflict between the two is quite riveting.
"But father, I think my dream is pointing me down another path!"
Another huge symbolism is the wind. The wind represents a combination of Pocahontas's and her mother's spirit. This is shown when the wind blows towards Pocahontas in the beginning as she looks down at Nakoma. Kekata: "She has her mother's spirit: She goes wherever the WIND takes her."
The wind was a symbol of peace and coexistence. This was shown in the way it bridged the language barrier between JS and Pokie. You'll notice the wind billowing when they hold hands, along with Grandmother Willow singing, "Listen with your heart, you will UNDERSTAND." Yes, the wind is more than just a pretty optical effect they used to make the movie look nicer. ALSO, when Powhatan was burning with rage and about to kill JS, when Pocahontas appealed to him, the wind blew towards him. The spirit of coexistence soothed his soul.
Thus, it can be shown that Pocahontas's mother was a peaceful woman. (Powhatan: "Whenever the wind blows, I can feel your mother's presence") And in the end,when John Smith left Pocahontas Pocahontas's mother's spirit, helps fill the sails to speed his way home, with Pocahontas using the INDIAN (important symbol) way of saying goodbye: Anon. Thus, the wind is the pacifying entity in the movie, the spirit of multi-culturalism, and an important symbol in the movie.
Nitpick #5: Ratcliffe wasn't a good villain!
I thoroughly disagree. Unlike the other settlers who were motivated by mostly ignorance, he remained thoroughly evil throughout the film. If you don't believe me, (ROGER EBERT!) watch the film more careful- ly.
"We will eliminate these savages"" <--evil
"This is my land! I can do whatever I want!" <- -evil
"Whoever looks at a savage without killing him on sight will be tried for treason, and HANGED!" <--evil
"I'd help you to dig, boys, but I've got this crick in me spine." (Mine, mine mine) hehe
"They're skin's a hellish red, they're only good when dead, they're vermin, as I said, and worse!"" (savages, pt.1) EVIL!!!
Yes, he was motivated by greed, but so was Jafar. (He wanted to be sultan) So was Gaston. (He coveted Belle) So was Scar. (He wanted to be king)
He was CLEARLY a bad guy, not just a misinformed good guy.
Nitpick #6: The animation wasn't very good! (Rarely heard nit- pick)
If you say this, people will say you haven't seen the film. (which is probably true!) My advice to you is...watch it!
Nitpick #7: The songs were too complex!
Yes, the songs were much more complex (I.e. JatRB) than other films, (BatB). Does that mean that they're bad? Of course not! Perhaps it was a bad move to release Colors of the Wind with the TLK (The Lion King) video, because that's like divulging your trump card. Bonk the people at Disney Marketing.
However, songs like JatRB really gave a "flowing" feel to her personality. It sounds "like a river" which is quite fitting. So, yes, the songs are complex, but are WONDERFUL. BTW, Vanessa Williams sucks. Judy Kuhn will rule forever.
(Opinion: I think that the instrumental was much better done in Pokie than TLK (The Lion King). They convey so much emotion (Pocahontas's theme song) and seems so much more expressive. (TLK FANS: FLAMETHROWERS OFF! I loved TLK, TLK's soundtrack, and Rhythms of the Pridelands. I just like Pocahontas's`better. Hats off to Alan Menken, my condolences to Hans Zimmer.))
Kind of fitting under this category was lack of a love song. Yes, I agree with this one. However, this CAN BE FIXED! Send your vote in to Eisner's office (posted previously on RAD). Let's hear "If I Never Knew you" the way it was meant to be heard!
Nitpick #8: Historical inaccuracy! (BIG NITPICK!!!)
My advice to you is: Take Pocahontas with a grain of salt. It was not meant to be FACT. In fact, the movie poster says: "An American Legend Comes to Life" Note the word LEGEND. Some people think that Pocahontas is corrupting the minds of our young kids into little zombies. HOWEVER, by being not historically accurate, it may motivate kids to find out the real story of Pocahontas, thus having a positive influence.
Yes, she was 12, yes JS was 30 or 40. Yes, if this were a love story in real life, it would be material worthy of those "interesting" specialized newsgroups for pedophiles. Yes, they probably weren't in love. However, as previously noted by other people, little girls wore NO CLOTHING in that time period. So, if it were true, it wouldn't be a family film. It's just a movie, folks, not a textbook.
Compared with other movies with Indians, it's actually much better. It's for ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY, and if you want to watch a movie for historical content only, my advice is to write to your local PBS affiliate and order their entire list of documentaries on WWII. Do not watch Pocahontas for a` history lesson. What are you doing in the movie theatre if you wanted something other than entertainment, hmm?
Nitpick #9: It lacked the magic of TLK! (Listen up San Jose Mercury News)
Yes, Pocahontas did not have a wildebeast stampede in the middle of Virginia. However, the magic of a great Disney film is in there if you actually make an attempt to look. For example, not many people can watch Savages, Part 2 and be totally unaffected by the powerful images. When JS and Pocahontas first hold hands, and the wind blows the sparkles in a circle around them, that's Disney Magic! Ditto with all "wind" sequences. Another nice Disney touch that was added that wasn't there before was Pocahontas's hair. It flowed smoothly and naturally, and appeared totally real. Now, THAT is art! They tried new panoramic angles (SatBD--Steady as the Beating Drum). Yet the romantic Beauty and the Beast/Aladdin feel was there.
At first, there was an animosity between JS and Pocahontas when JS called her people savages. Soon, when she realized that he was learning, her opinion changed. Remember in BatB (Beauty and the Beast), her (Belle's, that heroine's) first impulse was revulsion. However, as time went on, she realized that Beast was trying to learn. Then, Belle's opinion changed. The sweeping vistas and natural beauty of the film were spectacular. It tried to send a message (cultural tolerance, anti-oppression).
Yes, TLK (the Lion King) was a very good film but when I try to think of sent messages, I'm at a loss for words. Perhaps responsibility, but that was subtlely played.
In short, Pocahontas had the beauty and great animation of a wonderful film. The "magic" was definitely there.
Yes, Pocahontas was knocked out of #1 by Apollo 13. This was probably due to VERY poor marketing by Disney. They got all the merchandise ready, they got the promotions ready, they got HUGE Central Park premiere ready, but they neglected one part: The TV ads. I've never seen so many Power Ranger ads, so many Batman ads, so many Apollo 13 ads. Yet, Pocahontas's ads were noticably sparse. On top of the fact that they were hard to come by, the ads STUNK. Why were they playing that song from "Angels in the Outfield"?
Why were they playing "Belle's theme" (from Beauty and the Beast)? What were they trying to say?????
That Pocahontas's music wasn't good enough? What happened to JatRB (Just around the River Bend)? What happened to CotW (Color of the Wind)? What happened to ads that acclaimed what the critics said?
Recently, the ONLY TV ads that relate to Pocahontas is Burger King. When Disney's marketing relies on a fast food restaurant to promote their movie, it's time to fire bad ones and hire new ones. If I just had some raw footage of Pocahontas, I could have done some capturing, editing, and output a great preview. (Or at least better than the one's shown).
Pocahontas had phenomenol potential, but it was totally undermined by Disney. In fact, a couple days ago, I was at a friend's house who had a little sister. I asked her if she saw Pocahontas and she stared at me blankly. <sigh>
I hope you have found this rebuttal to be useful and insightful. Intelligent rebuttals to my rebuttal are welcome, flames deleted and ignored. Thank you for reading this...I worked hard to make it!! |
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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Nice essay find, APK. I don't think that Pocahontas is a bad movie, and I know it has some very devoted fans. This essay does a very good job of pointing out why there are lots of things to like about it. I don't think the storytelling was quite as strong as with some other Disney films, but I still think it's quite an enjoyable movie. Personally, this is a movie that I find that I enjoyed more as a child than I do now, but I don't dislike it by any stretch, and think the author of this essay did a very nice job showing the merits this film has.
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APK
Sinister Snack Fairy
Joined: 06 Sep 2005
Posts: 1322
Location: Lost
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Grr...I wish I could find an intelligent 16 year old guy these days who will shamelessly profess his love for Disney. 
But all the good ones seem to be hiding on the internet. |
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AladdinsGenie
Genie of the Messageboard
Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 11845
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| that essay sounds like something I would do and I would word it just like that. |
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Calluna
Genie of the Messageboard
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 3692
Location: Where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| APK wrote: |
| Quote: |
On top of the fact that they were hard to come by, the ads STUNK. Why were they playing that song from "Angels in the Outfield"?
Why were they playing "Belle's theme" (from Beauty and the Beast)? What were they trying to say????? |
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In their defense, almost movie previews do this, using music from earlier films. In fact I have a vague memory of TLM music in Aladdin previews back in 1992 but don't quote me on that...
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